Fresh Run....Ballistic Chrome !!!

[J and L Fishing]

50 fish in one day is awesome. i wonder how many were relesed? How many of those released made it after having fingers in the gills? 

[Jigman53]

Fish-On, what type of rod and centerpin reel do you guys like to use??? 

[Fish On !!!]

Fish-On, what type of rod and centerpin reel do you guys like to use??? 

Here is the set up I use , it is a 13' wild river float rod , and the reel is a Okuma Sheffield centerpin reel , spooled with 10# Andes main line and then I tie on a roughly 24" piece of Flourocarbon line , I join the two lines with a black micro swivel and the floats I make myself , hope this is what you wanted

[Andrew]

I don't see a problem. I make an effort to get my fingers into the gills of all hatchery descendants. 

Actually, I was having a conversation with another Notebook guy recently concerning C&R methods. This summer I increased the test rating of line I fished to a 10 lb. minimum, 12 lb. when short casts got the job done. This enabled easy hand-lining down to the lure for most fish under about 10 lbs. That is to say, assuming a properly de-barbed hook was used, fish were usually released without any hand-to-fish contact; a simple tug on the hook in the right direction had the fish on its way (sorry to say some hatchery fish also got this treatment). I now feel like this is a good alternative to "tailing" the fish (to say nothing of using a net).

The "hand lining" technique obviously diminishes photographic opportunities, but I don't really photograph fish on solo outings anymore without a really good reason. It would also start to become impractical for larger fish (like winter fish), and it does seem summer fish with their 8-month freshwater stay are at a greater risk for infection, but it's probably something to remember year-round, as the majority of steelhead most of us hook winter or summer are 1- or 2-salt fish and I doubt any of them appreciate getting de-slimed (or hooked in the first place, but that's another issue).

That said, I'm fairly indifferent about how you handle your fish in PA. Fifty steelhead is a banner day for sure, but moonphases and moonflows would have to align perfectly for about a decade before anyone around here would get in on that with ocean steelhead again (without actually going to the moon).

Andrew

[dardevle]

Andrew, can you think of a good reason to hold fish through the gillplates if one wants the fish to have a maximum survival rate??  If you can then you are going against traditional wisdom.  I understand your anti-hatchery stance(I agree with it when there is a competing "native" population, which is the case in most of our rivers in WA), but what about rivers that have naturally producing "wild" fish that are of hatchery origin (like all the rivers in the Eastern U.S.).  In fact we have some of these populations in this state due to all the columbia river dams(i.e. Methow).  In my book naturally reproducing steelhead should be treated just like our native steelhead in WA if the river has no native steelhead population. 

[J and L Fishing]

I don't think you should put your fingers in the gillplates of any fish you plan on releasing.....wild or hatchery.

[Andrew]

Mike, 2 points:

1) I was joking. Guess I should have used a more sarcastic smiley guy. like

2) If I weren't joking, or if I were in a debating mood, I might try and offer a "nontraditional" reason that fish like these don't "deserve" native-caliber treatment. (Ok, I'll do it anyway.)

Eastern waterways supported healthy native fish populations at one time. As with our native fish, it was no doubt a combination of factors that led to the decline of these populations. Just as our hatcheries displaced native fish, I am quite certain that the introduction of hatchery fish to Eastern waterways displaced native fish there as well. I understand that the introduction of steelhead (and salmon) to the Great Lakes region has given thousands of anglers the opportunity to catch fish they never would have otherwise, but I would think that from an ecological perspective, the presence of hatchery fish that do not naturally belong there should be just as resented as it is here, "naturally reproducing" or not.

Steelhead are not actually a superior fish -- this is only the perception of the steelhead angler. If evolution, mother nature, God, or whatever other creative force you want to credit would rather have whitefish than steelhead in River X, I believe that's the way it should be.

Many anglers, guides, manufacturers, retailers, fish culturists and maybe even some real live scientists would disagree. Oh well.

More than likely, as native populations continue to decline and larger climate-related ecological problems begin to surface, hatchery fish will become the only real option for anglers. I think I'll quit fishing before then, if it happens that way.

In the big picture, though, for what it's worth, I suspect a couple cataclysmic events and several thousand years' time will have healthy native steelhead populations back where they belong, and whitefish back where they belong. Or maybe that's just unfounded hope.

Sorry for the thread drift. Actually, I'm not. 

Andrew

[Andrew]

Oh, also, you really can't equate upper Columbia tribs with Great Lakes tribs. The upper Columbia is supposed to have steelhead in it.

[dardevle]

I'm not sure I totally agree with your last comment Andrew.  Once a run is extinct in a river; that river might as well be a Great Lakes stream.  In fact, my mentality might actually save some of that last native runs in our state.  Like you've stated many times, non native species are inferior.

[dardevle]

Andrew, the comments I really like of yours are the ones directed toward releasing fish without contact and picture taking.  I know several examples of fish that were abused because a guy needed 20 photos and 15 measurements.  I think one thing many of us could ask ourselves when we take that next "glory shot" for the internet brag post, "Is this photo for my ego, or for the fishes best interest?"  I think when people answer this question more honestly, then the fish will benefit.  Great point in your post Andrew,  Thanks!!

[Andrew]

Couldn't agree more about "fish before photo" ethics, Mike, but I'm not sure I understand your second to last post.

The reason upper Columbia true native steelhead populations are severely depleted, or perhaps currently nonexistent (although I'm pretty sure there are still genetically distinguishable fish in the different tribs) is that we built dams, overfished them, poisoned the ocean, etc.

The reason Great Lakes true native steelhead populations are currently nonexistent is that there never were any, because "steelhead" need access to the ocean, among other things (or am I wrong about that?).

That is, if we took ourselves out of the equation, populations of native steelhead would eventually rebuild themselves in the upper Columbia, while the Great Lakes region would be left with its hatchery non-steelhead populations (which would probably dissipate over time). Rather than the upper Columbia or other vacated Washington waters "might as well be" Great Lakes streams, I'd say we "might as well" remove the dams and watch how quickly natural selection puts the right fish back in the right places.

As for your mentality saving some of the last runs of native fish in WA, I'm not sure what you mean. Are you referring to broodstocking and naturally-spawned hatchery fish as a means of replenishing native populations mentality? I guess you might be right that this is our only way to directly augment population size now, but this board has been through the broodstocking debate a few times already and I'm sure I've articulated somewhere I'm not too keen on it. Actually, I've probably said most of this stuff somewhere before. Kinda makes me wonder why I'm still sitting here (something about the moon, ha.ha.).

 

Andrew

[dardevle]

I'm not prepared to comment on the genetics of upper columbia stocks at this point, but I'm sure their are several rivers /streams on the west and the upper columbia that had populations of steelhead that are now extinct.  If we brood fish into these rivers from other rivers and they start naturally reproducing, I don't see any difference between that fishery and the great lakes.  The ocean doesn't mean beans to me.  The population is either native or not.  I don't advocate brooding, so it here where we are misunderstanding one another.  The comment about my mentality stems from actually recognizing the difference between a true native fish and naturally producing hatchery origin fish.(I would consider a fish born of two native fish in a hatchery, a hatchery fish)  You have to admit I'm at least ahead of the current white house administration that would like to lump all these populations as one to help ease the burden of ESA. 

[Andrew]

Ah, then we're in agreement about broodstocking.

I guess I can't blame broodstock proponents for trying, as it realistically is a choice between artificially supplementing (or in some cases outright creating) depressed populations or doing nothing. The chances of putting a few more fish in the rivers this way are much greater than the chances of restoring populations naturally by removing dams, restoring stream habitat, cleaning up the ocean and reversing global warming. There would pretty much need to be a progressive (and incredibly charismatic) fish biologist in the White House before these things (all necessary) would come about.

At the end of the day, though, I guess I don't see much difference between rivers with genetically inferior semi-manmade steelhead and no steelhead at all. From an angling/economic perspective the difference is monumental, but I don't much see it as a question of angling or economics.

I really hope I'm wrong about the future of our steelhead, but I have viewed way too many vacant canyons this summer.

I need to go on a hike. And to stop posting in this thread.

Andrew

[younggun]

I get volunteer hours at school for collecting brood stock!  so i dont work for free i fish for free! lol      Wild steelhead only even though they get low returns. they've made a few exception with some of my larger fish but the smaller ones i have to toss back, the river is total catch and release.